... that one only has to look at what happened yesterday in Altsasu (Navarre).
Every year the Sovereign People of Altsasu attempts to celebrate a fiesta-protest known as "Ospa Eguna" (Go Away Day), demanding the evacuation of the Spanish Military Police (Guardia Civil) from the town and valley, and more in general from the whole Basque Country, because they are disruptive, abusive and unwanted occupation forces.
And every year the occupation forces try to demonstrate they are the ones in command and not the People. That's what I call a dictatorship.
This year it was painfully obvious:
The "logic" for the military aggression was that "we don't like it". Not even using and abusing the law and the judicial system, just absolute arbitrariness from those who know that they won't be ever challenged in their own legal and political system.
Yes, Franco won the war and his ghost is still very much alive.
Judging by the video it looks like the Guarda Civil(Police not Military) ended a peaceful protest. Although the protesters had no right to raise their voice and hands against the Guarda Civil. If they have a problem with the Guarda Civil they need to address it to the government.
ReplyDeleteMaju, I'd like to address your view of Law Enforcement, establishment, and the way you react to Politics you dis agree with more than this specific situation in Altsasu.
The Rebels sometimes(usually?) are idiots. The "freedom", "power to the people", etc. rhetoric has gotten old after 300 years. Life is more complicated than that. Often the establishment is right and the rebel needs to get spanked.
You treat rebels like spoiled babies. They can insult, hit, break the law(Parents), etc. as much as they want but if the Law(Parent) disciplines them just a little they're abusive and oppressive. Ferguson is a great example of spoiled babies being treated like heros and the parents being falsely accused of abuse.
You make Law enforcement and countries with politics you dis agree with into devils. For example if America makes a mistake it doesn't make the people in the Government, Law enforcement, citizens, etc. bad people. The individual Police at protests in Ferguson are not bad people, even if you dis agree with what the Law is doing.
I know you're a very educated man and a critical thinker, so why do you have such irrational bias when it comes to Politics?
It is a Military Police corps, and about half of the Spanish Army in fact. Many states modeled on France have such corps. Gendarmerie in France, Carabinieri in Italy, Carabineros in Chile, etc. In Spain it's called Guardia Civil but, in spite of the name, they are not civilians in any way and unionizing for example is illegal in that corps, which works 100% under military rules. Wikipedia uses the term Military Police, although it must be underlined that it's not the usual MP which is an internal police of the Military but a military corps dedicated to policing.
DeleteThe rebels are the vast majority of the People. They are not "rebels" in any sociological sense: they are the majority at the local level.
DeleteCalling rebels "idiots" is idiotic in itself, an unwarranted personal attack against very respectable people who put the common good before their own personal safety and immediate interests. Unless you consider heroes to be idiots it's totally unwarranted and in any case you get a stern warning for personal attacks. Three strikes and you're out.
"You treat rebels like spoiled babies. They can insult, hit, break the law(Parents), etc. as much as they want but if the Law(Parent) disciplines them just a little they're abusive and oppressive".
The law is not the "parent". The parents of those people are in the same side. The law in this case is a foreign law imposed by outright military occupation.
There is a long-held doctrine, since at least philosopher and theologist Francisco de Vitoria, that not only authorizes rebellion against tyranny but also demands it as civic duty. Submitting oneself and collectively to tyranny is totally the wrong thing to do.
"You make Law enforcement and countries with politics you dis agree with into devils".
I don't. They make that themselves. If you condone and even enjoy hurting innocent people, then you are plain and outright EVIL. If you do not accept democratic self-rule then you are plain and outright TYRANNICAL. I just state the obvious, I'm like the kid who pointed at the naked emperor: the emperor just got into that predicament himself.
In my opinion you just happen to have that reactionary tendency to consider that authority is good just because it is authority, and you'd say the same if we'd be discussing the Gestapo and the SS here.
Incidentally, what is your opinion of George Washington and the other so-called "founding fathers" of the USA? They disobeyed "parental" authority with outright violence. Following your logic I can only imagine you think that England should have won the war, right?
Delete"Incidentally, what is your opinion of George Washington and the other so-called "founding fathers" of the USA?"
DeleteI'm sure the American revolutionary rebels weren't always in the right. The fact I'm American doesn't mean I think they were perfect.
If Guarda Civil are oppressive and wrongly disrupted this protest, the people should tell their government and not resist the Guarda Civil. My problem with the protesters in that video is their dis respect for the Guarda Civil and physical resistance.
Delete"in any case you get a stern warning for personal attacks. Three strikes and you're out. "
I understand. I wasn't directing "idiots" to the protesters in the video you posted.
"The law in this case is a foreign law imposed by outright military occupation."
I don't have an opinion on the situation you bring up in this post. But Basque living in the country of Spain, following their laws, and those laws being enforced by Guarda Civil isn't automatically oppression.
It can be oppression in which case rebellion is justified. Unless extreme violence is committed by the oppressor, dis respect and any type of physical resistance by protesters isn't okay. Like I said before the rebels should at first be un-confrontational and ask the government(or make change in a democratic way) for change.
"Submitting oneself and collectively to tyranny is totally the wrong thing to do."
I don't think people should do that. I think there should be respect of authority and people should be slow to condemn.
"I don't. They make that themselves."
Yes they make mistakes, but you should make sure not to overreact. More importantly my point before was it is not good to put all of the thousands of people involved in a mistake made by a country under the same blanket of evil as the few who make the decisions.
The few who make decisions aren't always that bad either. Sometimes they don't realize what they do. Plus, what is evil in your view isn't evil to in another person's view.
I've seen you give horrible insults to American Police and government that I think are wrong. For example tell me how George Bush as an individual deserves the image of being an evil/bad man? A president who makes mistakes isn't an evil man. He had good intentions. Unless you know something the rest of the world doesn't about an evil conspiracy he was apart of, he isn't an evil/bad man.
"I'm sure the American revolutionary rebels weren't always in the right."
DeleteEspecially when they rebellerd, when they were acting as revolutionaries? Basically you are talking like a pro-English traitor. They had a name for those... and probably a bullet too.
You speak like like a little fascist. That's not meant as an insult but as an assessment: authority is always right, we must always obey and bow to gallons. That's what you're saying: you'd be equally good as fascist, as stalinist, or as Saudi subject... but you would never bring hope nor progress to your society nor the World.
You say I gave "horrible insults" to some figures of authority like police or George Bush but all I did was describing their crimes. If you murder, you are a murderer. Bush didn't "make mistakes" in any case, he bombed the USA to create a pretext to invade Central Asia (and later Iraq too). Those are no mistakes: those are acts of treason, terrorism... well, horrible crimes against your own people, mind you.
Also it's worth mentioning that "idiot" is a Greek word that means someone who leaves politics to others, a passive citizen, who apparently is not bright enough to care for his/her own collective business. So, as Varoufakis correctly said once or twice, calling rebels "idiots" is the most wrongly placed insult ever. Idiots are people who don't care about politics, literally.
"But Basque living in the country of Spain"...
DeleteThis is the Basque Country. It has always been that way. Spain is an invention of the 18th century, product of wars and not democracy. Even its seedling Castile only existed first as a county dependent, intermittently, from the Basque Kingdom of Pamplona (later Navarre).
This is pretty much like Ireland, Kurdistan, Kosova... forced only by arms to be part of a foreign state. We owe them no respect other than the fear they can instill on us by reason of their continuous violence. If the Sovereign People of Sakana says: Guardia Civil Ospa, the democratic answer should be to evacuate. But there is only residual democracy in Spain, totally straightjacketed in every day more repressive laws and reactionary institutions. For example, they just passed a so-called Muzzle Law by which any act of protest or free expression that police arbitrarily considers to breach the law can be ADMINISTRATIVELY sanctioned with huge fines, that you may not be able to pay in all your life, without any guarantee of defense before a tribunal.
Basically the threat is not anymore: you'll go to jail but we'll take everything from you: your home, your salary, your washing machine, your car - if you have them. Just like in the Middle Ages.
I don't expect to persuade you: you quite apparently have such a deeply ingrained authoritarianism that you'd accept everything, even Hitler, just because of that notion of authority deserving a respect they have not earned in many or most cases.
Because respect you earn, you are not born with it. Even if you are my father or grandfather, if you do the wrong things, I'm not going to respect you but rather the opposite. I will feel ashamed and troubled but will never accept the wrong as if it was a right. It gets to the point when you say: you are not my father, I don't recognize you as such for my own sanity and dignity.
"Like I said before the rebels should at first be un-confrontational and ask the government(or make change in a democratic way) for change".
LOL, who do you think sent the police there? The Spanish government of course. Anyway we Basques are make up a mere 6% of the Spanish population, we can be totally ignored almost as much as you ignore and abuse your Native Peoples... unless we rebel. There's no other choice.